GCSAA Podcast
The official podcast of the Golf Course Superintendent Association of America turns a spotlight on the stories of GCSAA's members and the vital role they play in the game of golf's overall success. The podcast is also a vehicle to showcase association products and services that can help members do their jobs better, faster and more cost-effectively.
GCSAA Podcast
64. A conversation about women in turf for Women’s Golf Day 2024
As a part of a partnership between GCM and John Deere, this episode of the GCSAA Podcast celebrates Women's Golf Day 2024 — which runs an entire week this year, May 28-June 4 — with a panel discussion among four women working in turfgrass management about the state of the women-in-turf movement. Devon Carrol, solution development manager with Envu, serves as the guest host for this episode and is joined by Carol Turner, superintendent at Bigwin Island Golf Club in Baysville, Ontario; Andi Meadows, assistant superintendent at TPC San Antonio; and Andrea Salzman, assistant superintendent at Pinehurst No. 2 and The Cradle in Pinehurst, N.C.
The GCSAA Podcast is presented in partnership with Envu.
Hi everybody and welcome to another episode of the GCSAA podcast presented in partnership with Enview. I'm your host, scott Hollister. Glad you could join us for episode 64 of the podcast. You know, for the past several years, gcm and GCSAA have partnered with John Deere to celebrate Women's Golf Day, which is actually a whole week, may 28th through June 4th this year, through a series of stories on the magazine's website, gcmonlinecom, and episodes of this podcast, all featuring prominent women in golf course management. Well, we're doing it again this year, and that is the basis for this episode, which features a wide-ranging discussion about women in turf, where the industry has been, where it is currently and where it's going. Devin Carroll, a solution development manager with Enview, will serve as the host for this episode and will introduce you to three other women who have found a career home in golf course management Andrea Salzman, adrienne Young and Carol Turner.
Speaker 1:So to commemorate Women's Golf Day 2024, let's get going with episode 64 of the GCSAA podcast. A quick reminder that you have options when it comes to consuming the podcast. There is, of course, the traditional audio version available wherever you get your podcast, but we also have video versions available on GCSAA's YouTube channel as well as on GCSAA TV. So, whatever your preferred method, we have you covered. So please check those out, subscribe, if you haven't already, and rate and review us if you're so inclined With that, here we go. It's episode 64 of the GCSAA podcast, featuring a discussion about women in turf in honor of Women's Golf Day 2024. Hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 2:Thanks everybody for joining. It's a real honor today to host this great panel of female leaders for Women in Golf Day. I'm your moderator, devin Carroll, with Enview, and today we'll unpack what it's like being a woman in turf. So we'll kick it off here with some introductions. Maybe if the three of you could each give us your name, where you work and how long you've been in the industry. And, carol, we'll start with you and then move on to Andy and then Andrea. So I'm Carol Turner.
Speaker 3:I've been probably in the golf industry about 15-16 years. I'm a fairly new superintendent. I'm going into season three as a superintendent, so that's pretty exciting.
Speaker 4:Awesome welcome. My name is Andy Meadows. I just got promoted yesterday to assistant superintendent at TPC San Antonio. I've been in golf since 2006, but I did take about six years off to raise my girls.
Speaker 5:My name is Andrea Salzman. I am an assistant superintendent at Pinehurst no 2 and the Cradle and I've been in golf for about five years now and the Cradle, and I've been in golf for about five years now.
Speaker 2:Great Thanks for joining, so really exciting here. You know the three of you have different titles, different number of years of experience in the industry and different locations, so I think we'll have some really great perspective here from some different angles. So one of the things that I'm always interested to hear about anyone in the turfgrass industry, but particularly for women, is to really understand what got you in the industry, what kind of inspired you to choose a role that's largely male-dominated. So, andrea, maybe we'll start with you if you'd be willing to share.
Speaker 5:Sure, yeah. So I got into this industry pretty much completely on accident. I got a summer job after my freshman year of college in a factory and then they ended up running out of work for us, so they just threw me out onto a golf course I knew nothing about golf, like I didn't know the difference between a fairway and a green, like I didn't know anything. And then I ended up really enjoying it. And then going back the next year and there I remember there was one weekend that I had off and I woke up on that Saturday and I was super disappointed that I didn't get to work that weekend and I had never felt that before. So then from there I decided to change my career path, pretty much completely.
Speaker 2:So did you do any school or education or kind of. How did you make that you know?
Speaker 5:transition to really a career.
Speaker 5:So I had been going to school originally for human physiology. I wanted to go into the medical field. Like they even did the thing on like the first day of class. They're like, look to your left, look to your right, at the end of these four years, two of you will be gone and I'll be like that's not going to be me, like no way. And then it was me. So once I realized that, like this was something I enjoyed way more than what I had been doing, I was about two years in. So then, fortunately, since I went to the University of Minnesota and they also offered a turf program, so it was pretty easy just to get in touch with the advisors and I could switch over pretty easily.
Speaker 2:That's great, Well happy you found us and were able to make the switch. Andy, how about you? What's your story?
Speaker 4:Okay. So when I first got into golf, I didn't really see it as a male dominated industry, because the first golf course I worked at was in Diamond Head, mississippi, and there were six women on the crew there and you know, we were like a family. I got into it, though, because Hurricane Katrina had happened. I didn't have any previous golf experience and I had no interest in golf whatsoever. I did have an interest, though, in like doing yard work and just kind of working with my hands and making things look pretty hands and and making things look pretty.
Speaker 4:So, um, when Katrina came, there were really no jobs at all, but the grass was still growing on the golf course. So, um, my mom had a friend that introduced me to it and, um, didn't really have a house at the time, was living in a FEMA trailer, but he would come and pick me up every day, and so it really motivated me to get out there. But once I touched foot down there and really could see the work that I was doing, kind of playing out, I became hooked immediately and then became really passionate about it and stuck with it ever since. I haven't left the industry at all, been here the whole time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great story, Caught the turf bug, and that's interesting actually that you didn't really have the perspective that it was a male-dominated industry.
Speaker 4:And I still. You know, I see so many women now I'm connected with so many women that I'm not seeing it so much as that anymore. I see the many women now I'm connected with so many women that I'm not seeing it so much as that anymore. I see the change happening.
Speaker 2:Super. I see it too Glad to hear that they're feeling the same. So, carol, would you like to tell us what's your, what's your entry story?
Speaker 3:I feel like we all have similar. We didn't just, you know, go to school and decide this is what we do. I was actually working over on Big One Island which is where I am currently for a construction company for a season or two and I always saw the Greens crew driving around on their gators having a good time. Once again, I didn't know it was a male-dominated industry because Big One's almost pretty always 50- 50 staff, so it just looked like fun. So the next year I decided to work on the greens crew here and had a blast, but I never really thought of it as a career. It was just me having fun, you know, just enjoying my time here.
Speaker 3:And I got back out in the industry because I didn't want to work weekends, because I was in, you know, my early twenties and I didn't want to work weekends. But every time I drive by a golf course probably in the next, you know, I think I was out of the industry for seven or eight years I would always be staring at the golf course. So that's probably a sign I should come back. And then I decided to take a break from my job. I was working as a personal trainer and I haven't left since, and the irony is, I needed a break from my job, so I wanted to go do something easier and now I'm a superintendent, which is not easier, but you know, I love it a little bit more, I think, than what I was doing.
Speaker 2:Excellent. Well, yeah, it sounds like we've got a really passionate group here with lots of experience. So I'm curious, you know, Andrea, we didn't really ask you about if you knew it was male dominated, but clearly, you know, Carol and Andy did not. So once, once, you kind of discovered that it was male dominated. Did that change your perspective? Or what's it kind of like to work day to day when you are surrounded mostly by men?
Speaker 5:So didn't? It didn't really deter me, I think. I think it kind of motivated me a bit more. I do feel like I think I used to feel like I had to work a lot harder to be probably taken as seriously as some of the guys. But yeah, it definitely it didn't really deter me at all.
Speaker 2:Glad to hear, Andy Carol, any experiences on your side along those lines.
Speaker 3:It did become.
Speaker 3:Yeah, when I moved on to the next golf course I was at and, um, I kept getting mistaken for the gardener, uh, it became pretty obvious, um, so, so I've gone back and forth, I've been lucky enough.
Speaker 3:I worked at ladies golf club of Toronto, so obviously there was going to be no issue there being a women's uh like mainly uh, female membership there. Um, but, yeah it, it definitely became more noticeable, and I also think it became more noticeable in, in like, in, in ways, as I've worked my way up through the ranks. You know, when you walk into a conference and you're the only woman there, or you know, you, you spot the other ponytail across the room and you're like I have to go talk to her and nobody's in the bathroom, uh, that it became really, um, obvious. But, but, um, to what Andy said too, I've been so lucky I think I came up in the right time that immediately as soon as I became second assistant, I I just happened to like meet this great network of women. So I've been lucky enough that you know, even though I'm abundantly aware of it, when I'm in certain social situations I always have a few of you know, my closest friends in the industry nearby.
Speaker 2:Yeah, definitely seems like the network is growing and I'm always excited. When I first started, I felt like I knew all the women that there were, but very swiftly. That's not the case, you know. I'm meeting a couple of new ones today, and so it's exciting to not always feel like the unicorn. Yes, andy, how about you? Did your perspective change at all as you kind of move clubs or had more time in the industry?
Speaker 4:Yeah, it did. It did Cause you know there was a period of time there and Texas has been slow to change. There's not a whole lot of women assistants or superintendents here and in the South I think in general. You know I hear about it happening in Canada and and and California, but it's it. I just noticed that I'm real competitive and you know it. I feel like a lot of when I first started a new golf course. Some people may think I'm there for the wrong reasons. So as time goes through, I just kind of have to establish a work relationship with people and show them rather than tell them. You know I'm about business, I'm a professional, I'm good at what I do and I know those things take time. So just how, I've definitely noticed. But I'm happy to be the person. I'm happy to represent women in the turf industry and show them this side of what women can bring to the turf industry.
Speaker 2:That's great. I know it's really a big tagline on the sports side of things. But the see it, be it movement, which I really think is twofold right, you're seeing it so that younger girls and others entering the industry see that they can be it too. Right, you're seeing it so that younger girls and others entering the industry see that they can be it too. But the flip side is you're also showing you know to the men, to the people higher up at the clubs, that you work at, that you know you can do it and you're here to stay. So I think that frame of mind is definitely important. So it sounds like the three of you have you know, obviously as a superintendent, but I do feel like um, yeah, like I.
Speaker 3:I don't want to say I'm questioned more, but I do think I am questioned more. Uh, you know, not all the time, but there there's definitely certain things where I feel like I'm I, you know, I'm being assertive and I don't think I have a personality much different from your average superintendent. But I think it comes off as I don't like the b word right, like I don't want to like like I'm.
Speaker 3:I'm just, you know, setting my boundaries and trying to do what's best for the crew or the golf course, and I feel like I'm know I have to approach things different than my some of my male counterparts at times. Uh, or I'm I'm you know I'm being angry, or I'm I'm my voice is too loud. Um, so I, I do feel like I'm still struggling with that a little bit. Uh, so I'm just trying to learn to, you know, use it the best I can, but I do. I do honestly think that that's the thing like your, things are just taken differently when it's coming from a voice that sounds like mine and not, you know, a male's voice, right?
Speaker 2:So do you have any tips for anyone listening who might be facing similar challenges? For you know ways to kind of work on that.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you just want to really keep your emotions in check, which is cause you don't want to be accused of being emotional. But, yeah, but still stand your ground. I really think that's been my, my biggest thing. I think a lot of people might when, when they are questioned, or they don't want to be seen as you know, hard to deal with, or or whatever they that people might label me is to just stand your ground. It's almost like just repeating yourself. Just repeat the same thing, like if it's right and it's what's right for you know, the golf course or your crew, you just need to just keep repeating it in different ways. Um, but yeah, stay calm about it. But don't back down either, because you know it's just as easy. You know you don't want to be taken as you know hard to deal with, but you also don't want to let people walk all over you just because you're so afraid of being seen a certain way yeah, I can imagine that that can sometimes be a tough you know line to kind of find the balance too.
Speaker 2:So thanks for the tips there, andy or andrea. A challenge that you'd line to kind of find the balance to. So thanks for the tips there, andy or Andrea. A challenge that you'd be willing to chat about.
Speaker 5:I think mine is almost related to Carol's, I think because we are like women are seen a bit differently in society than men, it can be a bit isolating and I do feel like I have felt that like mostly unintentionally in the workplace, but like when somebody tells me I can't do something because I'm a girl, or they'll like purposefully stop conversations with the intention of being like respectful, just like general things like that being treated a little bit differently. I can feel that it's a bit isolating. So that's probably a challenge that I've encountered.
Speaker 2:Have you kind of been folded into the women in turf network, Like, do you have, you know, mentors or other women that you're you can rely on?
Speaker 5:Yeah, I've met a couple of women in the industry and that has been super helpful with the isolation part, cause like the guys, like like they're, they're all very nice but they don't really have those same challenges or experiences. But then meeting other women like yourselves, like it's great to be able to like talk about this stuff and know that everybody else goes through it too.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I imagine sometimes you just kind of need that sounding board right, that it's not something you're doing. It's just kind of the unfortunate reality if that's how it is. But I know I find comfort sometimes just to hear that someone else has gone through the same thing and you know it's ultimately okay in the end. Andy, anything you'd like to share?
Speaker 4:sure I feel like there's so many challenges, honestly, like my brain is going all over the place. Um, and it's not, it's I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I mean it's not easy. It's not an easy um career path but it is really worth it.
Speaker 4:One of the biggest challenges I've had um having children in a family but still wanting to, you know, move up through the ranks is finding that work-life balance where my kids aren't sacrificing for my dream.
Speaker 4:And um trying to show my workplace that I am passionate and I'm just as good as the next person, but still having these responsibilities with my kids where they need to be checked out, they need to go to the doctor.
Speaker 4:But you know my counterparts, who are younger men, don't have that responsibility and, you know, really trying not to let my, my family get in the way of my career or my career get in the way of my family, and I have had held, have had it held against my, against me, for a promotion before that. I have the family and those responsibilities and I feel like sometimes, when I tried to move up, like they'll look for any excuse they can, whether it's you know you have personal stuff going on at home, or they'll look for any type of excuse not to not to promote or not to um support, and uh, that's one thing, that. And then, of course, the money. You know we don't make a lot of money in this industry, but in order to make a lot of money you got to move up, and then their sacrifices have to come from somewhere. So that's probably been one of my biggest struggles the past like three years is work, life balance with a family.
Speaker 2:That's really disappointing to hear that. You know you feel that you sometimes have to make a choice or that in some cases you know the club maybe is even making that choice on your behalf. So any you know tips or thoughts for other women who want to have a family, for anything that they can maybe do to kind of alleviate some of that.
Speaker 4:So I waited to pursue it as a career until my kids got old enough. I really I waited to pursue it as a career until my kids got old enough. I really I went to school while they were younger and while they're still developing still in preschool, elementary school, potty training I didn't miss any of that. I could probably say, you know like I raised my kids when they were young, but once they started to become preteens and gain a little independence, that's when I started to put my eyes on actual career. So, and it's worked out for me so far, Good.
Speaker 2:Well, you are the living proof that in the end it is possible. So thank you all for sharing. I know sometimes it's tough to have, you know, those conversations on challenges, but I feel like just kind of getting them out in the open or, you know, putting the elephant on the table, if you will, is important for other people to hear.
Speaker 1:Like we just talked about.
Speaker 2:You know that others are going through it too and there is a way to get past it and succeed in the end. But interestingly, you know all of you talked about challenges really related to kind of soft skills, right, and agronomics has not come up at all, which I think is an interesting point. So wanted to just see everybody's thoughts. You know what are. What do you think are the most important skills to be successful in this industry? You know, other than being a studied agronomist?
Speaker 5:So far, I've observed that being organized is very important and something I need to work on, but when I am, it definitely pays off.
Speaker 3:I just think it's the people skills since I've I don't think I'm the best agronomist, um, even in the neighborhood, uh, but the thing is is just you're not doing the actual work anyways. I have a decent sized crew here. It's just building a team building, building like my. My team is amazing. I couldn't do it without them and just actually caring about them. I. You know, I thought that's like that was the main thing on my resume when I applied to be the assistant superintendent here, and I've leaned on this as being superintendent as well, as I make sure to be out there with them, I check in with them. At the end of the day, it's like I'm not doing the work. I couldn't do it without them. This is a huge property. I can't cut all the grass like I'm not doing the work I couldn't do it without. This is a huge property. I can't cut all the grass. Um, I'm not on the sprayer very often, right? So it's just you know they is treating your, your people, well and they will treat you well.
Speaker 2:I love that. I think that holds true for a lot of industries. But definitely given the long hours and tough work, you know that you all do yeah.
Speaker 4:So, um, I like what Carol said. That's a big, big part of it. Um, because I feel like your opportunities are only available to you in in your circle, and, um, the more people you know, the more opportunities you have. Um, nobody had really heard of me until I made a Twitter account and then, um, all of a sudden it was like boom, boom, boom. It started happening and I waited gosh, I'd waited so many years for that. So I think Twitter is a really good tool, um to just kind of network out Um, but definitely like just getting to know people for who they are and not what they do. I think that goes a really long way for for like any industry. But those leadership skills that's kind of what I've been focused on lately is trying to work on my leadership skills to try to get people to like actually want to do what I ask them to do instead of like hating every second of it, and so I think that's a that's a nice little um skill that I'm trying to learn.
Speaker 2:You buried like three or four really good nuggets in there. I definitely want to call out the Twitter one at least in my experience.
Speaker 2:Um, once I got myself involved in the industry, it just opened up this world of opportunity, and every time I've asked for something, whether it's can I come shadow someone, can I have your phone number, can we get on a call the answer has always been yes. I really can't think of an instance where I was told no, and so I think that's really important, that personal branding, and it can be a little bit scary to kind of put yourself out there on Twitter or shake hands at conferences, but I really think this is a giving industry, that if you do it, you get something back. So, on that note, I asked Andrea that's a little bit earlier and we can revisit, but now that there are so many opportunities for women, I know there's different events where you can volunteer in groups at conferences. Has anyone participated in any of that and you want to talk a little bit, maybe about what the experience was like or you know how it's kind of propelled your career?
Speaker 5:I worked with the women in turf group at the US Women's Open at Pine Needles, I believe, two years ago, and that's kind of when I got introduced to like the whole women in turf thing like as a whole, which was really interesting to see. I got to meet a bunch of new people, um, and then I've kept in touch with quite a few of them, so it's been really nice to like be able to talk about different experiences and I believe they're coming back to the US Open so I'll get to see them all again pretty soon, in a couple months. So Andy?
Speaker 2:how about you? Have you had any of these experiences yet?
Speaker 4:Yeah, I've been really blessed, I've been really lucky. So I did get to do the Women's Open in Pebble Beach and then from there I had the opportunity to do the Women's Leadership Academy, and that's where I met Carol for the first time. And then we just recently did our PGA Tour event, where we had 10 women volunteer for that as well. So it was cool because I was able. I'd been looking for a way to give back. Like ever since Pebble Beach. I'm like, please, I want to give back, I want to keep this thing moving. And then our PGA Tour event came through and somebody had mentioned it. I jumped right on it the women came.
Speaker 4:So at that point I kind of felt like that was me giving back. And to see the younger, the younger generation or the younger girls in it, fresh, new kind of mixing with the older ones, that's really. It made me feel like I had. I was given back and so that was pretty cool. But to see all of them to be with them, it's just like it's indescribable. It just is. It's a, it's a felt thing, it's not really a speaking thing and carol, it sounds like you've definitely had some of these experiences yeah, so mine goes all the way back.
Speaker 3:Uh, bear actually sponsored a women in golf event at ladies golf club of toronto. Uh, when I was back working there 2017, um, so my very first year as second assistant, I already had a nice little network of ladies most of our still my friends and then I've been lucky enough to pretty much I apply for any of the events as they come up. But most recently, the two things I did was the leadership academy. That was amazing, really reignited the whole passion for everything. But then, as Andy said, I was part of that crew at um, at her golf course, and it's so hard to explain, but I'm still like I think I'm a better person right now and I'm a happier person just because I did that.
Speaker 3:It was just so fun to look out and see all of us there and I was just, you know, the, the, the, the events we go to, like conferences, and when we all get together, those are amazing. But there's something about just working hard together, with no sleep, just getting up and you know, and the volunteer van, you know, just laughing even though we're dead tired, just having such a good time. And, yeah, the different, you know, I was there with people I've known for a long time. But then I also got to, but I'm, I'm sure, like I'm just a better like manager and a better person right now just because I did that. So I can't wait to do something like that again.
Speaker 2:That's so cool. I love hearing your stories about just the energy and that makes a lot of sense that you know getting the chance to work with people beyond just see them at a conference builds those deeper connections where hopefully you know you have that network later on, and Andy's definitely one who's spreading the network, so that's really cool. So, given that you've all had these experiences and they were positive does anyone have any thoughts? I mean, where are we headed for women in turf in the next one, three, five years? What's next?
Speaker 3:I just hope we, we keep the ball rolling. I think we will. I think we we've've just started like we opened up a can of worms and like we're not going to be able to put it back. Um, because I've seen it grow from. I think there was 14 of us at the ladies golf club of Toronto. Um, I think we were all Canadians at that first event. And then we had another event that was in Canada, but we did get some people from the US too. So that was pretty exciting.
Speaker 3:But I just think it's just going to become normal to see, you know, you know, 10 of us or 15 of us at whatever PGA event, volunteering together, and we won't even be thinking about it because we'll just automatically, within our network, be emailing or texting. You know our, you know our friends, but also maybe we met a new, younger lady in the industry and we can push her into it. You know, like, get out there, volunteer, right, I can't make this one because I'm a superintendent and I'm stuck here until it snows, but you get out there and you do it. So I just think it's just going to become normal to you know, see, see all the ladies, and for us to you know, as we get to know each other and we get to network and use Twitter and all those things, I think it's just going to make it easier for the next generation to get out there and do that, but also keep us going to these things as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I really like that phrasing and I think that's an important point. I don't think any of us are necessarily advocating or pushing for a world where it becomes 50-50. That's probably unrealistic. But seeking a number of women where it feels normal and where the reaction from the people around us is normal, I think that's a really good kind of North Star for what we're driving toward it sounds like things just keep getting bigger and bigger.
Speaker 5:I know that, um, the US Open I worked at Pine Needles they had already talked about like okay, now we can't all go to the same tournament because there's just too many of us that they had to split people between Pine Needles and Pebble Beach, like they had to start splitting the group in half, and I feel like it's just gonna keep going and going. Like I've already met quite a few like women my age that are getting into this and I do feel like it's becoming more and more common, especially like like I had never heard of a female superintendent and then I met one and now I meet five and like I feel like it just keeps, keeps expanding.
Speaker 4:I just hope it gets easier. I hope it gets easier and more accepted and more welcoming and more um, I don't know, just just open. I just hope to see people's minds get changed. One event at a time, one conference at a time, one person at a time, and then it just becomes the people are getting, you know, jobs because they're qualified for it, and then, you know, having more women in these higher positions, we'll get more women in lower positions and more mentorship. I would love to see more of that More women mentoring younger women and just more activity and easier promotions.
Speaker 2:All good things to work toward and this ties really into one of the questions I definitely wanted to make sure we hit on. So I think things are moving in the right direction, but there's room for improvement and we've talked about some challenges. So, if I'm a male superintendent listening to this call, are there ideas or what are some action items, like something that I can start doing tomorrow at my course or in the industry to try to be more welcoming and attract more women?
Speaker 3:The thing that always strikes me about is like, like, obviously they don't realize they're doing it, but we all are attracted to people like ourselves, right? So we generally we start like, training up the people that remind us of ourselves. We're all guilty of it Myself I have to, you know, we all have our bias. So is to you know. So if you're a male super, just like, just because you're talking sports or whatever, you have in common with the guy. Maybe the girl has the interest in learning about irrigation or or spraying or or whatever. And if no one, if some someone like I didn't just go to school for this, if someone hadn't taken interest in me. But I watched it a lot of times before I knew this was a career where there'd just be some guy and he'd get along and they'd be buddies with the super or the assistant or maybe even a second assistant, and so they start to get taught different things and then they take interest and then they go to school. So maybe just look around you and you know, see that. You know maybe the girl is just there to cut greens for the summer or fairways. You know that happens with guys and girls. That's the nature of the job.
Speaker 3:But, you know, don't just take interest in the ones that remind you of yourselves, because you never know who your next superstar player and it's only good for you, right, because they'll probably stick around for a couple years as well is on your crew, because I've seen that that plenty of times where you kind of you know the, the lady or the girl gets sort of left out from interest, especially if you're not, you know, maybe they're a little bit shy to begin. So just remember that you know they can do all the same things and can learn all the same things. And just, you know, show some interest, you know, to in all your people from all different walks of life. Maybe it's somebody who's older too, right? Maybe we're not, maybe, instead of just looking for younger people you don't know who the next great, you know assistant or irrigation tech or intern might be. So just, you know, keep an open mind that you know they don't have to be just like you or or from the same background as you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's great advice and I think it's an important point on watching who's showing interest. I'm just reflecting. You know myself it could be scary for anyone to run a piece of equipment or do something they've never done before. And I think, especially as a woman you know I'm the only woman on the crew You're like really nervous to get up there on some piece of equipment. So maybe also take that time to take them aside in a comfortable space and give them space to show the interest. Um, that's another area where I think people could just pay a little bit more attention sometimes. That's another area where I think people could just pay a little bit more attention sometimes.
Speaker 5:Andrea, I see some strong head shaking. Yeah, you have something similar. Yeah, definitely. I feel like, at least in the first course I worked at, that girls were just always underestimated, like we only got bivets or buffalo blowing. That was the only thing they ever assigned to us, unless we like went out of our way to ask to learn something different. So, but then, like all the new guys could like go do anything right away and I'm like what is this so? Definitely just don't like underestimate us, like interact with us as people and like see what we're comfortable with and just allow us to learn if we want to learn yeah, give everyone their space to shine, andy something else to add.
Speaker 4:I think those are both really great, but I I kind of feel like it starts with having a woman's bathroom. That's crazy. But it was funny when the girls came here and they saw we actually had a woman's bathroom. It was like you have a woman's bathroom, like yeah, but I've been to many other courses that don't have that, you know, and it it just shows welcoming to some extent, like you're trying to make an effort and you you value, you know, that individual being there at your course.
Speaker 4:Another thing I think is really helpful in our meetings when I just when I first started here, we have a weekly agronomic meeting and I didn't really say much at first because I didn't want to come off like Carol, you know, or how people view her sometimes I wanted to observe.
Speaker 4:So I just wanted to sit and I wanted to observe. And I want to do that quite often because that's kind of my the way I don't come off as being emotional or anything or having too strong of an opinion, but to ask the opinion of of each individual, not just the woman, because sometimes, like in the meeting, I really won't say much because I don't want to be overpowering, but I have a lot to say, and so to me, welcoming is like specifically asking for feedback or the opinion, or like, um, just input from, from the women. And then also, too, like um, I know uniforms can be an issue, so being mindful of not dressing her up and in the men's clothes, like just trying to find something that fits the color, but allowing her to still be herself. So being mindful that you know, women do come with some maybe inconveniences, I guess from the norm, but we also offer so much that it's like it works out.
Speaker 2:You called out my two biggies. I always go straight to bathrooms and uniforms and I get it a lot of courses. I mean, maybe you don't have the space for a woman's room or there's not two stalls, but even is there a good lock on the door. Are you keeping it clean? Taking that extra couple of seconds? For how can I make this more comfortable for everyone, really, because for guys too, they might feel uncomfortable?
Speaker 2:you know the other way around sharing you know a bathroom or stalls with women and going that extra little mile it's hard to even call it an extra mile, but to put in your order sheet that you want some women's size shirts, so that's a really good call out that it can be small things that really can make a big difference in the end for somebody's experience. So great stuff. We're nearing the end of time here and I want to make sure we end on a high note because we're all passionate people who love what we want to do and want to spread that to everyone. So my closing question for each of you if you could talk about what you like most in the industry and what's your kind of tip for success, carol, if you want to kick us off, oh, well, I, like you're obviously going to say working outside, but I, you know, I love, like my location.
Speaker 3:I'm on an island surrounded by a freshwater lake. It's beautiful. I love training the staff, I love seeing them grow. I love seeing someone learn how to reverse a trailer. Um, I, I know it sounds cheesy, but I really think um, doesn't matter. You know, 99% of the people that pass through here and other golf courses that are are just going out into the world to get their, you know, their real jobs or, you know, are already retired. But I do really think that the confidence they gain from working here and running equipment, just like I'm sure, goes into their life and hopefully, I know when I was younger and I learned how to, you know, run equipment and stuff, I'm sure that sort of changed the you know the trajectory of my life really is like gaining that confidence. So I just love that side of changed the you know the trajectory of my life really is like gaining that confidence. So I just love that side of things.
Speaker 3:And then, yeah, I guess for for advice, I'd say just and this is specifically, I guess this is for anyone, but obviously women are known for not doing it is apparently we won't apply for a job unless, say, there's 10 skills, unless we have, I think, eight of them, where men will apply. If they have three, it's just to apply. I've seen it many times. I tried to mentor. I'm the type of person who will just apply, but I know I'm not the norm. But seriously, I would have when I was looking for assistance and I have great ones.
Speaker 3:Now, don't underestimate yourself, just apply for the job. Not the norm, but seriously I would have when I was looking for assistance and you know I have great ones. Now, Don't underestimate yourself, just apply for the job. You probably know more than you think you know and also, no one's going to check 100% of the things on the list. Just apply. You're the amount of people specifically women, I know her standing in their own way because they don't have the highest education or they don't you know they didn't have spray time at their last course or they didn't, you know, get enough irrigation time. So instead of applying when they see a really good assistance job, they stay where they're at or they apply to a lesser job, um, that are really holding themselves back. So so my advice is, if the job feels right and you want to apply for it.
Speaker 3:Apply for it, you're you're probably overthinking and most superintendents, like myself, are dying to get someone with your skills. So really, just yeah, just apply.
Speaker 2:That's great. You know we need the industry to change a little bit, to be more welcoming, but also I think sometimes we need to get out of our own way, right? So that's really great. Andy, can you share what do you like most about the industry and what would be a tip for success for someone entering?
Speaker 4:Oh well, I mean once again, carol said a lot of good stuff, but I like the sense of uh, a lot of things I love about the industry really do. Um, as far as the industry as a whole, though, I really love the kind of we're such a niche like thing that we have a very strong like bond of things in common. Like I can meet someone that I don't even know and talk hours, just talk turf and everything we know about turf. I can ask questions I could learn. So every interaction I have with another turfy is like an education in itself and just having that common bond that I can connect with just about anybody in the industry is super, super cool.
Speaker 4:But as far as my day-to-day goes, I would have to say that, like I'm a people person, I love managing, I love teaching, I love coaching, I love, you know, like Carol said, like seeing the teaching life skills to these young men that like don't know how to drive a standard and they're they're working with their hands. You know they're getting in shape, they're losing the depression that they came here with, they're being outside, they're getting that morning sunlight, like everything that's like suggested for mental health is like in our day to day life and we're teaching life lessons, like nature teaches us lessons, like the seasons come, the seasons go, like it's to be connected that closely with, with, and the oneness with, everything in nature and the seasons and the people in the tribe. I feel like this is how you know, I feel like I've found my purpose in it and I'm really happy and passionate and I try to spread it to everyone I meet, and then one. I guess the advice I have is just love what you do, practice, master the skills.
Speaker 4:Patience Takes a while to master skill perseverance, no matter what, no matter, I'm doing this, no matter what, okay, that's been a big one for me. And then what I found with all that is stuff falls into place when I'm doing what, when I'm doing what I love and when you know I'm, uh, following my path, no matter what discipline, and there's just so, there's so much. I could go on and on forever, but, um, yeah, just stick with it, no matter what. Perseverance, disciplineseverance, discipline. That's my advice.
Speaker 2:Andrea, how about you?
Speaker 5:I like most and really drew me in was like the team that you get to be a part of.
Speaker 5:Like we work long hours and sometimes the jobs aren't fun and sometimes it's really hot out and everyone is grumpy, but I feel like that really ties us together.
Speaker 5:And then, like even outside of work, like if I have personal issues or if somebody else does, like I have gone to my co-workers and like people have come to me and like we, I hope, all feel comfortable going to those people that we work with, like day in, day out, to like do something and get something accomplished. Together we just really learn each other and I feel like that support system is something that I don't really see in, like my friends or family or people that work in an office. Like those are not really common relationships with co-workers that I feel like I see around. So that's definitely something I'm super grateful for in this industry. And then, as far as like advice, moving forward, being so like young and new to this, something I've most recently learned is being uncomfortable isn't necessarily a bad thing. It means there's room to grow, room to ask questions and then just to have the courage to try new things, to ask questions, even if you think you look stupid like that's the only way to grow.
Speaker 2:So that really resonates with me. I've got to be uncomfortable to grow and putting that in perspective sometimes really makes a difference. Really appreciate you taking the time out of your super busy schedules to hop on the podcast and for being so candid and willing to share your experience. Also want to give a shout out to our sponsor, john Deere, and thank them for hosting this podcast to celebrate Women's Golf Day with some women in turf.
Speaker 1:Have a great night everybody, these women and their journeys in the turf industry on the magazine's website, gcmonlinecom, in stories that will appear during the entire celebration of Women's Golf Day, which runs from May 28th through June the 4th. Plenty more good stuff to come here on the podcast, but until then we will say goodbye with a thank you to our podcast editor, evan Shapiro, to everyone at Enview for their ongoing sponsorship of the podcast, to the members of the GCSAA Board of Directors and the awesome staff at GCSAA headquarters in Lawrence Kansas, and, of course, my thanks to each of you for subscribing, downloading and listening. Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy, and we'll catch up again soon on another episode of the GCSAA podcast.