GCSAA Podcast
The official podcast of the Golf Course Superintendent Association of America turns a spotlight on the stories of GCSAA's members and the vital role they play in the game of golf's overall success. The podcast is also a vehicle to showcase association products and services that can help members do their jobs better, faster and more cost-effectively.
GCSAA Podcast
61. Jason Sfire on Breaking Barriers in Golf for Adaptive Athletes
When life throws a curveball, how do you swing back? In this episode of the GCSAA Podcast, Jason Sfire, an incredible advocate for adaptive athletics, opens up about his journey as an adaptive athlete in golf — a narrative that's as much about his own conquests as it is a beacon for inclusivity and accessibility in sports. In a heartfelt discussion, we navigate Jason's experiences, the insightful methods he's championing for golf course operators to foster welcoming environments for all athletes, and the industry's heartening response, as seen at the GCSAA Conference and Trade Show.
For more information about the National Alliance for Accessible Golf, visit the organization's website. You can learn more about the Great Lakes Adaptive Sports Alliance by going here.
The GCSAA Podcast is presented in partnership with Envu.
Hey there and welcome to another episode of the GCSA podcast presented in partnership with N-View. I'm Scott Hollister, the editor in chief of GCSA's golf course management magazine and your host for this episode, and we're pleased to have you along for the ride for episode 61. Today we welcome Jason Spire as our guest on this episode. But before I tell you a little about Jason, a backstory for you. We had originally planned to record this conversation live during the recently concluded 2024 GCSA conference and trade show in Phoenix, but due to circumstances beyond our control mainly beyond my control, not Jason's we had to postpone that, had a few fits and starts between then and now, but finally had the chance to sit down with Jason, and it's a conversation I think you will really get a lot out of. So who is Jason's fire? Well, in addition to being a commercial real estate developer in the Chicago area, a dedicated family man and a committed multi-sport athlete and coach, jason is also one of the leading advocates for adaptive athletics in the country. Because of a devastating injury he suffered, he now participates in a number of sports, including golf, as an adaptive or seated athlete and for the purposes of our conversation today, jason has really become an amazing spokesman for the ways golf courses can make themselves more welcoming to golfers of all abilities and all circumstances. He was a part of an educational presentation during a conference and show on this very topic, and in this episode he shares stories, the lessons he's learned from his journey as a seated golfer and a lot of practical tips for golf course operators that can help them as they strive to improve. I really enjoyed getting to know Jason, enjoy this conversation and I hope you will too.
Speaker 1:It's Jason's fire, on episode 61 of the GCSA podcast. Very quickly, I want to remind you that you have options when it comes to consuming the GCSA podcast. There is, of course, the traditional audio version available wherever you get your podcast, but we also have video versions available on GCSA TV and the associations YouTube channel. So, whatever your flavor, we've got it for you in that regard. With that business out of the way, here we go.
Speaker 1:This is episode 61 of the GCSA podcast, featuring Jason's fire. Hope you enjoy it. Well, this one has been a long time coming. As Jason well knows, our guest today and I will introduce him now is Jason Spire. Jason is the president, ceo and owner of the Fidelity Group, a commercial real estate company in the Chicago area. He's been in the real estate development games for gosh over 30 years, not only doing new builds but also retrofits for accessibility, which will transition nicely into the reason that Jason is joining us today. One of a leading advocate for accessible golf, he's a board member the National Alliance for Accessible Golf, board President with the Great Lakes Adaptive Sports Association and recently in Phoenix at the GCSA conference and trade show as a part of a discussion on access and inclusion in the game of golf. So didn't mean to embarrass you there, jason, with all the all the plots and the resume reading to start things off. But, jason Spire, welcome to the GCSA podcast. Great to have you finally.
Speaker 2:Thanks, scott. Thank you, it's great to be here, man. I'm excited to finally get to land this one and talk a little bit about access and inclusion for the game of golf for adaptive athletes. So, yeah, super excited.
Speaker 1:Absolutely Without without boring the listeners too much. We wanted to do this in Phoenix. We had a live session of the podcast scheduled and the due to unforeseen circumstances mainly on my part, all on my part, not on your part we're unable to do it there. We also had another recording schedule scuttled because I lost my voice for about three days right in the middle of that. But it is really important for a podcast. Yes, it is a, as I've learned, a key skill set to have when it comes to the podcast. So finally, we're able to do it and we're happy to have Jason on board, because we had we. There was an emphasis in Phoenix, educationally to put it, put a focus on accessibility and inclusion and diversity in the game of golf. This podcast that we were going to record there was going to be part of that, but obviously you were able to speak to a pretty full room there.
Speaker 2:I was in the room.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a great great session.
Speaker 2:I was actually shocked at the turnout. Encourage me so, because you never know, right, you go fly all the way there and you show up to do something. But it just showed me that there's a lot of interest from operators and owners of golf courses for the inclusion and to invite, you know, golfers with all abilities into their courses, which is really what you know we're going after. So, yeah, it was great. It was a yeah either.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I was. I was encouraged as well when I when I when I came in the room and wasn't able to stay there the entire time, but it was a the session. The part of the session that I saw was really encouraging and in more and more golf course superintendents are enrolled, where they can positively impact the accessible nature of their courses. So I think that was a great sign to see the interest in that and hopefully we'll get some good listenership here and share some some good tips that you've that you've kind of learned over your journey in adaptive golf. So I want to start off a little bit with your origin story. Yeah, you and I've had a chance to chat in various meetings and conversations previously, so I have a rough idea. But I want to kind of just talk about you a little bit. To start, where did you grow up? And you are a huge sports, a huge athlete in various sports. We'll discuss all of that. But just where did you grow up and how did your interest in in all kinds of sports begin?
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure, so I grew up in Lake Zurich, illinois, which is a Northwest suburb by 40 miles outside of Chicago actually still live a mile from there, so moved a little bit around, but that's been home for a long time and it was really young age and I come from a family athlete. So my, you know, I come from a divorced family. So I had four parents and all of my parents were athletes, right, so we were just kind of raised in sports. My dad coached, you know, coached baseball and coached football, and then my stepfather was actually a professional tennis player at one point in time, a competitive professional tennis player, and then it was a teaching professional. So we grew up playing tennis from a really young age.
Speaker 2:My dad, my, my biological father, I'll say that could be a little more clear was more football and baseball. So I grew up at a young age playing football and tennis and then picked up wrestling, yeah, and so you come from a larger family. I had three brothers and I still have three brothers and two sisters and we were just all athletes and I was just blessed to be kind of introduced to sports that are really young age and because back then, right when, you know, I'm growing up. 20, 30 years ago you didn't specialize in one sport, you played everything. So I just got to play a whole bunch of sports and then I didn't start golfing. It was which is interesting until later in life, because that's more of a social, was more of a social sport. But then, along with my tennis, kind of carried golf and tennis through my adult, younger adult years until I went ahead then and after my injury then I kind of stuck with those two sports as I became more of an adaptive athlete.
Speaker 1:Do you find that you miss any one of the sports that you used to participate in? That maybe you don't now I know how active we were talking beforehand.
Speaker 2:You already got some pickleball in today and yeah, no, it's actually a great question, Scott, because what I thought is a this is a cool story and this will help maybe the listeners to understand, you know kind of what my heart and passion is, how I've gotten into doing what I'm doing now as an advocate for adaptive athletes and as an adaptive athlete coach. And as an adaptive athlete, I started thinking that you know, like football, because I, after high school, played college football for a year in college tennis and then I kind of you know, left and went into the work field and then I had my injury happened early, but I was still able to play sports and I was still really active and I started coaching football right out of college. So I was coaching able body football. For close, I've been coaching football able body football all the way up until I became partially disabled, fully disabled, partially paralyzed in 2017. I was still coaching able body football and I actually thought that I was never going to be able to coach football again due to my injury. So that would have been the one sport that I would have really missed if that had never been a possibility until just recently.
Speaker 2:Two years ago, the NFL, with Bob Woodger Foundation, started a wheelchair football league in partnership with the NFL and I was actually asked to be the head coach of that of the wheelchair Chicago Bears. So I got to get back into football. So, to answer your question kind of long roundabout way, I actually got to experience that that I was like heartbroken. I mean more than heartbroken. It was almost devastating in my life to think that I would never be able to coach again, especially the game of football, after coaching for so long. But that's not the case. Right Now I'm coaching and actually April 25th I'll be going to the NFL draft taking the Army veteran Pro Bowl team and coaching the Army Pro Bowl veteran team against the Marine and Navy Pro Bowl team. So yeah, so I'm still getting to do it, but that would have been the one sport that I would have missed if I didn't get to participate anymore at any level.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's super cool and it will work in great with a question. That's not that I didn't prep you on that. I threw in at the end as I was getting ready this morning to do this, and it was about it was about your hometown Bears, so we'll we'll save that for later, and it was about the draft too, and you're going to be there.
Speaker 2:That works out.
Speaker 1:We're on the same wavelength when it comes to that stuff. I don't want to belabor this too much, but I'll just let you tell the story of your injury. You know, you know what occurred again, you were a very, very active, able bodied athlete. Just briefly walk us through your injury and what happened, just to kind of set the stage for what we'll talk about going forward.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I'll give you permissions, god, if I, if I carry this on too long, you can steer me in a different direction. This is the hard one to say short, because it was so impactful in mind in my family's life. So, as I had said previously, you know, 25 years ago I had an accident and I fell 35, 30 to 35 feet onto a concrete driveway and I got to tell this part to get to how I became disabled because it's it's a journey. So, yeah, I actually fell and broke my back in nine places, shattered my left hip, shattered both my wrists, collar bright collar bone came out of my skin, knocked out 10 teeth broke one orbital jaw bone came through the roof of my mouth. I mean it was, it was a bad accident If, if I, by the grace of God, I live. I mean every doctor that I saw was like they were shocked that I was alive.
Speaker 2:I went on a series of. I had some immediate surgeries, right, kind of trauma based surgeries, immediately, immediately after the accident, and then I kind of went on this journey. My family and I have having these routine, what felt like routine because they were happening every year. I went 20 years without having a surgery. I mean I was having one to two surgeries every year on different parts of my body just to keep things you know, like new parts, models like the car or mechanical device over 20 years, fast forward a little bit. I was still so for the listeners and everybody to understand, I was still able, but I was still very functioning at a high level, walking completely normally, could still jog, wasn't running but living a really active life. And then in 2013, having one of those routine kind of maintenance back surgeries would have been my ninth back surgery in 2013. And unfortunately tragically acquired MRSA in the hospital. Yeah, which is MRSA, which is a flesh eating bacteria that if anybody doesn't know what that is, it's, it's antibiotic resistant or so like they don't and most antibiotics don't work on them. Ended up from 2013 to 2017, having to have 20 open spine surgeries, when in the kidney failure and septic, twice on a sepsis, ended up having 1300 doses of IV different IV antibiotics because there was one or two that did at work Over that kind of four to five year period.
Speaker 2:Met a doctor finally in 2017 that said I can, and this this is a real simple statement. He said I can heal you, I can fix you but you're never going to be the same. And my wife and I you know it's kind of like we thought like what choice do we have, right? I mean, if I don't do this, I'm almost died twice, I'm gonna probably die. This is gonna succumb to this at some point and we said whatever.
Speaker 2:So I had to have five surgeries by a great doctor down at Northwestern in the city of Chicago Over like a two month period real built my whole spine again.
Speaker 2:This was, like you know, I'm well over 25 back surgeries at this point. But he healed me, put me back together, went to you know infectious disease docs who ended up getting the infection to finally go into kind of remission, mostly because we got most of the infection out of me that was in my bones and in my tissue. But from that, what he meant by you're never going to be the same as it was going to be a life of you know this disability. And at the point in time they thought I was going to be completely paralyzed from the belly button down. And through the help of a lot of really great therapy practitioners and a lot of hard work, I've beaten those odds. I can still take about five to six steps with a set of crutches you know forum crutches, but I use a wheelchair daily and I live a really awesome life and I'm really happy and I'm playing a lot of sports again and being really active and father of four and a grandfather now and just believe man, yeah.
Speaker 1:So yeah, that's a. That's a story and I have a little familiarity with Merce. I had a family member who had a relatively minor obviously compared to your story Case of it in a injured finger they had and picked it up in you know as the finger, the finger was getting set in a hospital and whatnot, and so you know, certainly serious, very serious. I can't imagine in your case the scale of what you were dealing with is many times what this, this family member, was, was was going through.
Speaker 2:Anytime someone acquires Merce, it should be, you know, 9-1-1, like it's serious man. It is like not 9-1-1, call the ambulance, just like a 9-1-1 emergency. Get this taken care of? Yeah, because it can. It can turn it really quick into a bone and then a blood infection, and then, you know, people don't live through blood infections very often. So so yeah, that was that was.
Speaker 1:That was our experience as well. You could, you can definitely see when a doctor's and nurses faces change, when certain things happen.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah for sure that was one of them. So so you go, you go through all of this, you. You obviously have an upbringing and your life up to that point was unbelievably active, very involved in sports and athletics, and then obviously a relatively demanding job, I'm assuming, in real estate development. From once, once, all this was behind you and you were kind of processing your new reality. How long did that take for you to come to terms with, with what that was and what that was going to mean for you and your family moving forward?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's a great question Because you know you go on this four year journey of the infection right, and I would say there was a point in time during that infection when I was, you know and you hear now it's. It's really cool like you hear these professional golfers and some of this full swing talking about mental health issues which are really because I was there, like mine, for different reasons these guys for some trauma reasons and then other reasons but I, I mean I was at a really depressed state and I was really at a point where I was just like you know, I'm done fighting my what my poor wife I mean my wife became a triage nurse. One day they said, listen, you now have to change IVs and do all this. So we were in, our kids were growing up at the point time and seeing their dad really struggling. It was hard. You know, thank God for my faith in our church family was incredible. Through this process really helped me to stay focused on what was important, where my hopes should be. So it took a little bit of time. It was in the middle of the infection that I finally made the decision that I'm not done here, like there's something I've got to do with this story because you don't have at that point it was 45 to maybe 50, now I'm over 50 surgeries. But you don't go through something like that and not make a difference if you have an opportunity. So I'll fast forward a little bit.
Speaker 2:And what had happened was is, after I had gotten kind of the diagnosis that you're gonna be disabled, and I had done all the recovery and like, okay, I can still walk a little bit, maybe TMI, but I'm not catheterized fully Like I still have. I still can act as a really normal human being, which is a blessing I had said, all right, I gotta do something with this now. But I can't just like you don't create your own platform, right? You don't just say one day I'm gonna go do something with this and next thing you know you're doing podcasts, right? That doesn't happen. So I'm like, all right, let's do what we know to do. And what I need to do is athletics.
Speaker 2:I was a really good athlete. I even loved coaching more Like I love being an athlete, but I really love coaching. I love seeing a difference in people and being that activator, being the one that can take a kid or an adult and it activates something in them and that kind of pushes them to greatness. So after that I had decided all right, I'm gonna get into sports. And what sports did I play? Well, you know, I was a football player. Well, football wasn't around yet. Now it is, which is cool. But I was a tennis player and I'm like I know there's wheelchair tennis. Well, I didn't know anything about it.
Speaker 2:Cool story is I've taken my boys to Midtown because they wanted to play tennis. So I'm taking them and they're getting lessons in Midtown Athletic Club in Chicago. It's one of the larger athletic clubs and the guy that they go to do their first lesson with was a former coach that I played against his athletes at a rival high school. Oh, wow, and that's like it was an appointment. I mean it was a good thing. I walk in and he looks and he goes Sphere. He goes, are you Jason Sphere? And I'm like, yeah. And he said I remember you when you played high school tennis number one doubles and you kicked my guys butts. He said why haven't you thought about wheelchair tennis? Well, like two weeks before I'm thinking about wheelchair tennis. Now a guy's telling me he's like I can work with you. So I literally started playing wheelchair tennis in my daily chair, because I didn't even know anything that there was athletic chairs or sports chairs or tennis wheelchairs. So got into it was really cool. And I'm like, ok, now I got to find people that because you played at Midtown Athletic Club, I was one of the first athletes ever to play out of that Midtown Athletic Club Palatine wheelchair athlete. So now I'm like, all right, now I got to go find people that can help me understand how to do life as an adaptive athlete. So then I so I'm going through Google because that's what we all do now. Right, so I'm going through Google and I find Great Lakes Adaptive Sports. And this ties in with me being the board president, as you announced earlier. Again, this is just a really cool God story. How this happens is I find Great Lakes Adaptive Sports. I see they have tennis.
Speaker 2:I call the lady that answers the phone and I'm telling her my story and I'm like, hey, this newly disabled, I'm an adaptive athlete. I think I want to play tennis. I don't know much about it. I live in Barrington. I used to coach football active. And she goes is your name Jason's Fire? And I'm like, yeah, it turns out my last year of coaching able-bodied football in high school. I was a special teams coordinator for years. That's what I coached special teams and the kicker the senior kicker for our team at Carmel Catholic High School in Muntoline I was the varsity special teams coordinator. His name was Matt Helen and it was his mom who had answered the phone. I didn't even know she was going to do a glass of. So she invites me out to tennis.
Speaker 2:I go for the first time, fall in love with it, meeting guys that can help me understand. Like, hey, this is how you do this, this is how you move your chair, this is how you take your sport chair and push it with your daily chair. I mean just really cool life things that make you feel like all right. Now I have community, I have people that are like me and I see how well they're doing now. That gives me hope. So that's kind of how I found it. And then it's just kind of I just kept stacking blocks on top of each other to become a tennis coach and then pick up golf and now I'm competitive seated golf. We're going to be playing a big tournament here in April down here in Florida. So yeah, I think that answered the question. Kind of long answer, but it's a long story.
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Speaker 1:Enview is proud to help superintendents ensure the greens, teas and fairways are at peak health and playability for the biggest events in the game. Contact your Enview representative or go to usenviewcom slash golf to learn more about agronomic solutions that can help protect your turf and keep it healthy when it matters most. Remember to always read and follow label instructions and that not all products are registered for use in all states. Once again, our thanks to everyone at Enview for their support of the podcast. And now let's get back to this episode. Had you played much golf prior to your injury?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So after college, high school and after the short set of college, I go into the business world. And what do business people do? They golf, right. So my dad and I I've worked with my dad for the last 35 years. I know we're on the business to answer tired, but we would entertain clients, we bankers would take us out. So I was actually becoming a very good golfer. But the hardest part for me was, if you remember, 25 years ago. So when I was 25 years old I had this accident. There were certain times where I just couldn't golf. So I would be like a pocket golfer where I'd golf for these little pockets and I was really good. My pay to cab was getting really low, I was becoming competitive, I was enjoying it. And then after and so I hadn't golfed in 10 years prior to 18 months ago- yeah, wow.
Speaker 1:Well, what brought you back? Was it still the business side, or did your experience? In tennis just start manifesting itself with other, Did your mind start going OK, now what else can I do?
Speaker 2:Yeah, a little bit of that, but it was more of a specific thing is my dad golfs. All of my friends, like everybody I don't know many people that don't say they golf. Whether they're really golf or not, that's yet to be determined, but they like to golf right. So it was a little bit of that social draw. My buddies were golfing and I'd be go sit in the golf cart and have a cigar while they all golfed. And I'm like, again, I didn't know that there was this thing of seated golf and there were all these awesome solo riders and verticats and all these different devices. But what really happened was is when I was competing in tennis. It was really hard Because I had a little bit of a career playing open level wheelchair tennis, which is kind of the professional ranks in the International Tennis Federation, the ITF, and it's become a young man's game because the NCAA has decided that they're giving division one, which is amazing.
Speaker 2:I'm super stoked for these young men and women. They're giving division one scholarships for wheelchair tennis athletes now. So there's a lot of younger wheelchair athletes coming into the mix and so I started golfing because I went two years ago I went to play the Houston Open in Houston. My doubles partner and I. He's older than me, he's almost 60. And I'm going to be 50. And we ended up playing these two kids that go to the University of Alabama I called them kids because they're younger than my child and it was like 105 degree heat and we had played it. I mean, we were in the match for a little bit and then it just got. We're both like we can't do this anymore. So it just became a young man's game to compete and I'm super competitive.
Speaker 2:So I started golfing and then I started scoring in the mid 80s and I'm like that's pretty good. I mean, I've only been doing this a little while. If I find a coach that actually knows how to help coach me, I think I can shave a few more strokes. If I learn how to use the adaptive device that I have, I think I can shave a few more strokes. You know what I mean.
Speaker 2:Then I just started golfing and I'm falling in love with it because it's so much easier on my body. And then you shoot a couple of rounds in the 70s and then it's like you're in, no matter what it takes, you're full, you're full Ryan. And then opportunities come because your handicap goes low and people see that and then they offer you the opportunity to compete. And so, again, I had made that statement early on, that like if you want to do something with the story, what God's given you, then you have to go ahead and push it forward. So do I want to compete in golf forever? No, probably not. But to be able to say that I've done it really gains a lot of credit with other seated golfers or adaptive golfers, because I know what they're experiencing. So that's kind of why I'm pushing it forward now and going forward from the competitive side at least.
Speaker 1:Well, I want to kind of turn the conversation a little bit to some of your experiences on the golf course, and this is where I think hopefully the superintendent, listeners, golf operator listeners can kind of learn something from, hopefully learn some stuff from your experiences. What do you recall from your your first attempt to play as an adaptive golfer? What was that experience for you like? I mean, what obstacles did you did you run into, and was there any sort of epiphany? I guess after you walked away, going man, they could sure make this a lot easier for me and others who have challenges like the ones that I have to deal with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's an awesome question, and I think that that's probably the most important question that we're talking about. If our goal is right especially with you know, gcsa's background of what you all do for your listenership is the most of it, and I have a really unique experience of how I was welcomed right, because what happens most of the time in all adaptive sports is how you see, like, how do we see people? How do we see people as an adaptive athlete? Do you see Jason, the guy that comes up in the wheelchair? Do you see Jason, the guy with the cart that rolls on your course? Or do you just see Jason as a regular dude that wants to just play some golf and have some fun? So I was really lucky that the first course I ever played on actually was my home course in North Barrington.
Speaker 2:We were members of Biltmore Country Club, social members, and once I started Canada on this journey, I'm like you know, I would love to be able to golf right in my backyard if I could. So my first experience was brought. So maybe, scott, what I'll do is I'll give you the high point and I'll give you a low point. How's that? And there are two different stores and the first one is my high point and that's how I was welcomed at Biltmore Country Club by the staff there, and the white bird, who's you know one of your members, is our groundskeeper and superintendent. He's an incredible guy and he has a great heart towards this. What we're talking about because when he saw me first, he saw me as a person and as a member and just said how can we help you? Because you know more about this than we do, right? So that's a great first question is how can we help you Right? Not what are you going to do to my golf course, how can I help you? And then we can partner right, because immediately he puts me in a position where I feel welcome and I go this is somebody that cares and this is somebody I can partner with. So that's kind of the engagement language that we work with when it comes to adaptive athletes.
Speaker 2:So my first experience was awesome with you know, wyatt and the gang, but we had to work through a lot of obstacles. I mean figuring out simple things like they want members to use the facilities that are on the golf course, but if the facilities that are on the golf course at the halfway house are not accessible, I can't use them right. So the first couple rounds, no one. I didn't even think about it and I'm like, okay, now I'm on hole 15 and I really should use the restroom, and what do we do? So the course I mean literally they were like we're going to build a rampant and they literally the next week tore things up and put a rampant for one member. So to me, that is it's not about the cost, it's not about the impact, it's about the people. And when you have a mindset like that as an owner and operator to say it's about the people and it's about seeing people for who they are and what they have to bring to the world, instead of what the impact is, that changes it a lot.
Speaker 2:So since then, we've made a bunch of you know changes. They've made a bunch of changes to the club. They allow me now they store my cart there, which is amazing because I'm one of the only golfers in the area that have a cart and we're going to put my cart on Solar Writers website. So if there's any other seated golfers in the area that want to be able to try seated golf or use a cart, they can come to build more. They'll allow them to come and use my cart on our course, which is really cool. They allow me to store my scooter there, which is awesome.
Speaker 2:So literally I'm full up in the parking lot. I wave, they bring my scooter out to my car. I roll my scooter down to my locker, I mean. So it's a different experience than what most golfers get and what I've experienced outside of my whole course. But I just had to give them a shout out because they've gone over and above to make it the most enjoyable experience. It came for me. Some of the not so great experiences I've had. I had a bunch of friends in from out of town who are really good golfers a couple of them scratch plus golfers and I want to take them to one of the best golf courses that we have in the Midwest. I'm like I just want to do this. I'd like to play it right Personally, selfishly, but I also want to bring my buddies to a great golf course. So we drive about an hour and 20 minutes north and when I filled out the thing online, I had put seated golfer Solar Writers golf cart. Put the link in there. Do the research if you want.
Speaker 1:I'm not going to call you and tell you you know and ask permission.
Speaker 2:I'm going to fill it out like everybody else does. I'm going to put all the. You know they give you a reason, a spot to put notes. I'm going to put the notes in there. I'm thinking we're good Morning of, haven't heard anything. I got six guys. We got the yeah, six guys. We got two, three sums going off at 714 and 726 or whatever. It is Going to play a little fun game, probably some skins or something.
Speaker 2:We show up at the golf course, unload the cart, drive to the practice screen. My buddies go in and pay because I can't drive my cart in the clubhouse, right, but they go in and pay. They don't say anything. We go to the first tee and out comes somebody and says what are you? What is that? What are you doing on the tee box? And I'm like it's a Solar Writers golf cart. It's approved by you know a lot of golf carts courses. Actually it's approved by one of the.
Speaker 2:I asked the gentleman. I actually said give me your top three golf courses in the country If you could golf. And he names Pebble Beach in that top three, right, and you know Pebble Beach, spyglass, all those courses. Well, I golfed there. That actually is a picture right behind me I don't know if you can see it to my this shoulder. Yeah, it's me and it's hard to see, but that's me and one of Pebble Beach's green Solar Writers golf carts. Oh yeah, they have them. They have them there at all of their courses for seated golfers to play. So he names Pebble Beach. I said, well, I've golfed there in one of these carts in a sideways rain, standing water on the golf course, and if the Pebble Beach groundskeeper and superintendent feels that it's okay, I'm sure I'm fine here on your golf course. No, it's not safe, it's not safe.
Speaker 2:It's not safe for who? I said the golf cart safe, it's, you know. Blah, blah, blah. We go into long conversation. I said can I see your man and speak to your manager? Manager's not here. Why are you not going to let me on your course? It's not safe. I said is it not safe for your golf course or not safe for me? I said because if it's not safe for your golf course, then you probably need to think about how you approach people. I said it would be different if you said, hey, there's some wet spots. We really would like you to stay out of them. If it'd be okay, maybe you could go 90 degree rule car path only two years, because it wasn't car path only for everyone else, which was like crazy, right, right. So I won't name the golf course, but that experience was.
Speaker 2:It was awful. And here's the crazy part. Like I don't share this often and I'm pretty durable around this stuff at this point in my life when it comes to but those types of things for a disabled person and adaptive athlete, you don't understand how hard we try and how much we fight to just kind of live through life and just try and be normal. And now you're just trying to go golf and do something that we all love to do as a social activity and now you're actually being almost like demeaned because the way I do life isn't good.
Speaker 2:And he couldn't even give me an answer, what wasn't safe about it. So I literally just took my car back and I actually was weeping in my car as all my friends are freaking out because I just couldn't take it anymore. I tried all of my skills to engage in conversation about this thing safe and how do you, you know why are we doing this? And I just said I'm a really good negotiator, it's what I do for a living. And I said I failed. And I just finally said you know what? It's just sad that this is how you see people and that you don't care about every golfer, you just care about certain golfers. And that's a sad day for the world, you know, for golf, for all sports, when we can't try and find a way to navigate through every situation. Because I wasn't going to do any damage to that, golf course, I know.
Speaker 1:Was that a catalyst at all for you to get to kind of get involved? So you know, I can make a difference, I can change. I might not have been able to change his mind but I can change others mind for the benefit of people that are going through what I'm going through. Did you look back on that at that moment as something that kind of got you into service with the Great Lakes Group and the National Alliance and all of the work you've done in those areas?
Speaker 2:It's 100% true because the minute that happened, as I had said, I was kind of limited by bubble that what had happened to Biltmore was the way that I was going to be greeted everywhere and again, I didn't. You know, I don't have context, I don't know other seated golfers at this point in time a year and a half ago. I do now. But yeah, that's when I looked up the Alliance, you know, and I said I actually called the gentleman who sold me my solo writer golf cart and I had said where are there places that I can get involved? I said because I'm tired, I'm not going to let this happen to another person, because that's just my coach's heart right Is like I said, I'm not about, I'm not really great at pushing Jason's agenda, for that's not what's important to me. Thankfully, thank you. I want to go ahead and help other people.
Speaker 2:So I got engaged with the Alliance. Through the Alliance, I got engaged with GCSA, with you and an opportunity to speak down there in Arizona have another couple opportunities coming up where I get to speak and talk. And the main focus of my conversation isn't about. It has a lot less to do with golf and has a lot to do with how we see people, because it's important wherever you are in life is how do you see a person with disability? Do you see the wheelchair? Do you see them? Because I just get around differently but I'm just a regular person. So yeah, that was really kind of a catalyst and activator for me to say I got to do something with this and I don't know what it means, but we're going to take it for a ride and see where it goes and see what happens.
Speaker 1:I'm curious have you ever, have you followed up with that course? Have they changed their ways, or do you still hear stories that maybe they're one of the bad apples out there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it was actually. It was awesome because when I was in Arizona, they were there and I was actually able to have a conversation with someone and I think I just think it was a bad day for them. But because of that right, and that's the thing is, everything happens for a reason, right, and I really truly believe that. I believe that our whole life is already playing out and everything happens in that exact moment for a reason. So, for that, for me, was hopefully an eye-opener for them, because they actually came and sought me out at the conference in Arizona because they had seen that I was going to be there. They didn't know that I was the guy I don't think right, but they had known that there was going to be some people there talking about access and inclusion in the game of golf.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I think that that I'm hoping that that has changed and I'm also hoping because there's becoming a presence of there's not many seated golfers in Illinois. There's one or two of us. There's a lot of adaptive golfers, a lot of one-armed golfers, a lot of one-later prosthetic limb golfers, but there's actually there's never really been a ton of organization and I think some of that organization started to come, the USGS, usgs jumping on board with some competitions, us at the Alliance, or bringing some education forward. So I'm excited. I think that it feels like I got in at the right time and I can really get a service to help advance this forward.
Speaker 1:It's cool. Actually, you mentioned the USGA. The US Adaptive Open will actually be played here in the lovely state of Kansas. Yeah, later this summer at St Creek Station out in Newton, which is a great facility, and I like the angle.
Speaker 1:One of the things that we do or in that, I do in my job here is I love success stories, and not just success stories, but the story that you told of the club that was not welcoming. There's lessons to be had from that and that's kind of the way that we approach what we do in the magazine, what we do with various other education and communication vehicles. Here's what people tell their stories like that. I think those are so valuable for superintendents or operators who are listening to hear the great story that you had at Biltmore and go, well, heck, we could do that.
Speaker 1:But conversely, hearing the story of things that didn't go so great for you and go, wow, we should really not do that, that doesn't seem like a great way to run a business or run a country club or run a golf course. So I think those are super valuable. I want to pivot just a little bit, and you probably took this approach when you were in Phoenix and talking with our members when you were on the panel. But I want you to kind of think about maybe some key takeaways that you would like superintendents who are listening, golf course operators and owners who are listening If someone's just getting curious about this topic and they hear you and I speaking what do you think are important takeaways for them to get headed in the right direction to make sure that they have a welcoming golf facility for anyone who is interested in playing the game?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I love that Because this whole conversation is going to be a lot to digest and I get that. But if we can leave your membership or anybody who listens to this with just a few key things to start to see golfers of all abilities, because you don't have to be disabled to need special assistance or have some sort of handicap flag or access flag on your card, what I love is kind of two things. The one, the first thing I spoke about, is kind of that how do we see people? And when you see a person with disability, what's going to be your first question? Start thinking about that first question now, because the first question definitely shouldn't be is what happened to you? Or the first question shouldn't be what do you need to be able to golf here, those types of things? And then the second thing is is really getting educated?
Speaker 2:I think that illiteracy is the biggest issue that surrounds whether it's the golf course industry, whether it's formally the tennis industry and tennis clubs all over the place. It's just not understanding what even adaptive golf is. I mean, I can't tell you how many courses, scott, that I go to, even still to date, even in the state of Florida or wherever that have no idea that there is actually such a thing as adaptive or seated golf, and that's crazy. So I would just really encourage anybody that listens to this. If there's any sort of poking or prodded anywhere in your body, a tickle, a spidey sense, whatever you want to call it to get educated and that's where the National Alliance of Accessible Golf we have a whole education platform lined out.
Speaker 2:For what does adaptive golf look like, whether it's seated, one arm, short stature, blind at any of those different types. It's not just seated golf because Jason's a seated golfer. That's just one way to golf, but it's get educated and it's ask curious questions Once you engage. So what I talk about all the time and this is with whether I'm any sport I'm coaching and what I do coaching clinics for different coaches is I tell them that you have to connect before you can correct. So you have to be able to connect with an athlete right and before you can correct. Well, this is a little different, right, because we're not going to correct, but you have to be able to connect before you or engage right Before you can direct or before you can. So just engage.
Speaker 2:A lot of what I've found is a lot of people are they either feel like the conversation will be easier, just not to have the person with disability right, or they're, maybe they're just a sphere and that's the other pieces. It's just fear that they're going to say the wrong thing. Well, you know what I'd rather you, scott, or anyone, just come up to me and try, rather than just not engage in a conversation at all or even just walk up, you know, and just so. A disarming way to approach someone with a disability is just say you know what. I've never done this as an operator or, as, of course you know, employee. I've never done this, I've never engaged with someone with a disability.
Speaker 2:So, but I really would like to partner with you in this. So what can we do together to make this a better situation for you? Just ask those questions, you know, and just engage. So I would just encourage any of them. You know, don't start thinking about how we can remodel our course. That's the wrong place to start. What it is is get a hold of the Alliance, get a hold of someone like me, get a hold of Glassa, get a hold of these. And there's a bunch of great organizations. I know there's some in Kansas City, there's Arizona great organizations that do great education and have a ton of adaptive sports that can educate you on where to go if you have an interest in making your course more accessible for the game of golf.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you take great success story at Biltmore. I mean, just that's how they approached. It sounds like how that's a great roadmap for other superintendent's operator facilities to take, and just you know what can we do to work with you so you get to enjoy the game here as much as the other members get to enjoy the game there, and I would be remiss if I didn't. Obviously, one of the reasons that you got connected with GCSAA was the fact that our director of government affairs, hava McKeel, serves on the board of directors for the National Alliance, so it's an important issue for the association as a whole. So superintendents can certainly turn to GCSAA to get some basic information.
Speaker 1:I will throw links to all of these organizations in the show notes of this episode. So if you're listing on Spotify or Apple or wherever, you can even look in the show notes or on YouTube the video versions as well You'll find that kind of information At least. Get you started down that road and hopefully we can start adding more and more courses that think like Biltmore. I've got a whole final four for you that I wanna get to and I'll bring it full circle, or a conversation about the Bears, about that Real quickly, though I mean, we're talking about your coaching. Are you doing any seated golf coaching at this point? Have you found any others that you're helping along the way?
Speaker 2:So not formally, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so not formally because we're actually trying to develop that's what the alliance and I'm trying to work with some others is actually develop a training format to actually certify coaches, yeah, and then when it comes to seated golf or any sort of adaptive golf, so, but I am actually working with a few guys down here in Florida that are interested.
Speaker 2:Just because I have a car, people come up to me. I'm the only golfer down here and the only golfer back at Biltmore, so obviously I'm not hard to find. But people see other members, see that I'm out there in the course and then they know somebody or they have a family member and they approach me and so, yeah, there's actually a couple men that I worked with. One gentleman he's already gone back to his home, but I'm working with another gentleman down here getting in my car, taking some swings, letting me use my clubs, and so, yeah, nothing formal, but I am. But I'd love to, I'd actually love to develop some sort of program that I could put something out there where people then could find me and then, once there are in Florida, when I'm down here in the winter and actually formally coach, because it would be really cool.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean that's a great way to go about it and I just your story is super cool as someone who faced just your great adversity but has been able to turn that into something where you've got a, you're being driven, you're helping others, you're opening doors for them, and that's super important and just a cool story all around. So let's have just a couple 30 seconds of fun here and do a final four, which I most episodes. I throw these at our guests and sometimes I forget, but this one I did not. So three golf questions first, what's your favorite memory of playing the game of golf? And it could be from your seated golf days. It could be from your able-bodied golf days.
Speaker 2:It's definitely that opportunity that I had to play at Purple Beach and Spyglass. It was just, I mean, it's picturesque and it's iconic and I got to do it with some really close friends, so that's the greatest memory thus far. I got a lot of great memories of my dad on the golf course as he ages, but that's like I mean that's pretty cool to be able to go to Pebble and Spyglass.
Speaker 1:The weather. It sounds like you played it in Pebble. That's heck.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure I would have tackled that Maybe for Pebble I would have, but yeah, for two hours, and then it was sunny the rest of the weekend, so yeah, Well, that's good.
Speaker 1:It's a beautiful place. I've been on it many times. I have never swung a club in anger on it, but that's definitely on the bucket list. So, speaking of bucket list, are there any other golf courses that you would just love to be able to tackle?
Speaker 2:I'd love to be able to play TVC Sawgrass as they're watching the players. That would be amazing. But I'd love to be able to play internationally in Scotland or in the UK, anywhere of those. I love link style golf. That's at St Creek Station. Well, the US Adaptive Open is at link style Of course. So hopefully May 7th I qualify so I can play some link style golf in July. But anywhere over the UK would be incredible for me. Scotland I had some buddies this last summer that went to Scotland and just the stories. So because that's where seated golf started Really, yeah, that's where seated golf started was the first paramobile device was developed in the UK. So there's kind of a cool for me. I know it'd be really welcomed everywhere. So that'd be pretty cool too to go there.
Speaker 1:Birthplace of the game. Obviously Do you have any sort of dream for some people that you'd love to get out and play around a golf with or could be a threesome, could be a fysome, will be flexible.
Speaker 2:I'd love to go five people Be my son John, because he's an avid golfer, my son-in-law Logan, my dad, while he's still here, so that's four, and then probably it's definitely a pro. I'm just trying to decide right now probably JT. Okay, if I could golf with JT, that'd be pretty amazing. I mean, everybody would say Tiger, but this current fleet of young guy golfers, I just I'm a JT fan, yeah pretty amazing.
Speaker 1:He showed really well on that full swing. You mentioned that earlier. I'm actually in the midst of finishing the second season and so he shows pretty well. He'd be that whole crew with Ricky and Jordan. Yeah so cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Super fun JT with my family members at Panther National his new golf course.
Speaker 1:Well, that would be great. Yeah, that just opened up. We just did a picture on that. You didn't say one of the Jonas brothers which during one of the podcasts I recorded down there in Phoenix with Amy Bakkersteady.
Speaker 2:I remember I heard that yeah, she wanted to my kids, maybe the Jonas brothers.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a little beyond. It's a little beyond my age group. And so, and the final one, I'll roll back to football in the Bay. As you mentioned it, are you in or in around on the QB situation there with Chicago, the Justin Fields trade and, zeroing in on Caleb Williams? The draft is coming up. You said you're heading there and I guess that's in mid-April or near the end of April in Detroit. So what are your thoughts on the Bayer situation?
Speaker 2:I was okay if they would have kept Justin Fields, because I get that he's not a great pocket passer yet, but we haven't given him much to pass to. Last year we did right but we haven't protected him and being a long time football coach, it starts up front. If you don't protect your quarterback you can't ever see what he's gonna do. So I'm a little in between. I'm after that. I'm a little confused. I don't know I'm not a huge Caleb Williams guy because it's another running quarterback, another athletic ready quarterback. So it's kind of like we already had one of those. I don't know why we'd get another one. So I don't know. They're gonna have to take a quarterback now. So I gotta be in on it. I just don't know who. You know what I mean. I just don't know who.
Speaker 1:So yeah, I painted those skills in a quarter a little bit by making that deal. I was slightly in the camp that they should trade back a little bit land, a Marvin Harrison, or get some draft capital, build up your line, things like that. So we all feel like we're experts here in Kansas City after the last couple years.
Speaker 2:Well, you should I mean you can talk that one a little bit. I actually was like, just keep Justin Fields for one more year on his end of his rookie deal and see what happens. Let them both compete I don't know, take a quarterback, whatever. So, whatever, I gotta be in now, so I'm hoping it works out.
Speaker 1:Well, you're gonna have a front row seat to it.
Speaker 2:Well, you're in.
Speaker 1:Detroit. That'll be super cool. We had it here last year and made it down for some of the fan experience that we weren't actually there for the draft, but it was kind of cool to have it in town. So, jason, thank you so much for your time. Andrew, patience, as we described earlier. I really appreciate it. Super happy we were finally able to connect and have this conversation. I hope that what we talked about and some of your stories will be an inspiration to superintendents who are listening to at least take a few minutes to sit back and look at their operations and see how can we make what we do at my golf facility, welcoming to golfers of all skill levels and of all abilities, and I imagine that that will happen and hopefully again, everyone take a look at the show notes of this episode. We'll have some further resources there and I'm sure we'll see Jason again, hopefully at future shows as well. So, jason's Fire, thank you so much for your time today, really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:It was a pleasure Be well.
Speaker 1:Well, that's a wrap on yet another episode of the GCSA podcast presented in partnership with Enview. Big thanks to our guests today. Mr Jason's Fire, remember. If you want more information about ways you can make your golf facility more welcoming to more golfers, check the show notes of this episode for links to the websites of the National Alliance for Accessible Golf and the Great Lakes Adaptive Sports Association, which Jason currently serves as president. Lots of good stuff in the works for upcoming episodes of the podcast, so stay tuned to your favorite podcast feed for all of that. But until then, we'll say goodbye by thanking our podcast editor, evan Shapiro, our friends at Enview for their continuing support of the podcast, the GCSA board of directors and all my colleagues at Association Headquarters in Lawrence, kansas. And, of course, my thanks to each of you for subscribing, downloading and listening. Until next time, stay safe, stay healthy and we'll catch up again soon on the next episode of the GCSA podcast, i̇n inscre'.